Dave's 16" f5.6 Tri-dob
(Click for larger image)
This page was last updated Saturday, 10. November 2007 09:07 AM -0800
(A digital camera held at the eyepiece captures bright objects such as the moon surprisingly well; see below for a couple of examples! I'll be experimenting more with that next chance I get!)
Let's start at the top and work our way down, shall we?
I originally started with a simple 1/8" thick aluminum endring. It wasn't rigid enough, so I wound up reinforcing it with another ring of 1/2" plywood.
There may be a couple of things
that are novel about my approach. One of these is the way I suspended my
secondary. Note the 0.5" aluminum tubing "pegs" that extend off the endring.
They have eyebolts extending perpendicularly through them at the ends. I tapped these six short
sections of aluminum tubing so that they capture short sections of all-thread at
120 degree positions on the endring running parallel to the incoming light path.
I also tapped the aluminum endplate. The aluminum pegs mate to the ends of the
all-thread, above and below the endring. At the extreme ends of those aluminum
caps I drilled holes aimed at the secondary mirror. Into those holes I inserted
small eyebolts. The eyebolts, in turn, capture the wire that passes to and from
the secondary. The aluminum caps are adjustable along the axis of the light path
(assuming you can disconnect the eyebolts that hold the wires--which I can), so
you
can coarsely adjust both the secondary position AND angle in this manner. The
secondary is mounted in the traditional way with three springs for fine
adjustment of the angle. The eyebolts also allow me to adjust the lateral
position of the secondary and center it in the optical light path. Adjusting the
tension and centering the mirror was a nightmare until Mel suggested making a
"fixture" or jig (a physical connection between the secondary mirror and the
endring) to hold the secondary in place until the wires were in place and
tensioned. Thank you Mel! Whew! (See the comments/lessons learned below.)
I realized all my efforts to be able to adjust the secondary were overkill when,
during my first setup, I had the epiphany that all I needed to do was adjust
individual pole lengths. Criminy! Can anyone be that dense?
I found some nice light extendable aluminum tubes at Home Depot for $10 each. Then down the aisle I found some paint rollers that screwed onto the extendable poles. I lopped off the rollers, cut the wire the desired length, and then bent the wire around a 1/4" bolt in my vice (into loops). At the endring I had to bend the wires to 90 degrees and fasten them to the endring in pairs with a 1/4" carriage bolt and hand nut. At the focuser I did the same thing without the 90 degree bend.
I think my Crayford style focuser is also a bit unique. I used one heavy piece of aluminum angle to mount four small bearings. This angle is mounted to a piece of flat aluminum (1/8" plate). The drawtube rides against these 4 bearings and passes through the plate. The focuser shaft is held in tension against the draw tube by two nylon thumbscrews that pass through another drilled and tapped piece of aluminum angle. The thumbscrews seat into separate cylinders of Teflon. I basically took a piece of Teflon shaft and drilled a hole perpendicular to the shaft the same diameter as my focuser shaft. Then I cut the Teflon in half right through the hole. The thumbscrews seat into shallow holes that I drilled into the butts of the cylinders. It's simple. Pressure on the draw tube is easily adjusted and I can pile plenty of weight on the drawtube without seeing any slippage. The focuser shaft and knobs were salvaged from the Pitney-Bowes copy machine (see the Copyscope page for more on that.)
I also attached my homemade
copyscope/finder to the endring with a small piece of aluminum angle.
My secondary mirror is mounted
using Mel's wire spider design. However, my attachment points at the secondary
post are just simple aluminum plates separated (or spaced) by a length of 0.5"
aluminum tube. These two plates and the spacer are held together by tension from
the wires. The black aluminum tubing runs through both plates and the 0.5"
tubing spacer and is tapped (1/4-20) on the end. This hole is used to securely
capture a 2.25" round plate of aluminum. I used a metal circle cutting jig from
Harbor Freight to make two of these 2.25" diameter aluminum plates. These are
drilled and tapped for the traditional 3-point, spring-based secondary
adjustment. The 3.1" minor diameter secondary mirror is glued with RTV to a
section of 2.25" aluminum cut at a 45 degree angle. In these pictures the wire
runs directly through holes in the ends of the plates. I used machine bolts as
set screws to lock the plates against the central shaft.
I used that fluted plastic sign board stuff to make a baffle. Following the advice from another ATMer on the list I used a razor to slit every third flute allowing the piece to be flexible enough to mount directly to the endring. I simply painted this with flat black spray paint and used wood screws to mount it directly to the wooden endring.
...making our way down the OTA...Here's a view down the OTA.
I used simple wooden blocks with 1/4-20 carriage bolts and hand nuts to capture my truss tubes at the mirror box. The clamps are fastened to the mirror box with more carriage bolts and wing nuts. Also in these pictures you can see the grooved screen door guide wheels that serve as pivot points for the Virtual Counter Balance springs. I'm currently using string to connect the springs to the mirror box. I'll switch to wire soon, now that I've settled in on the right solutions with respect to weight. Also in these pictures you can see the central altitude fin or bearing. It rides in a triangular block with a groove that's lined with 1/16" Teflon. Epoxy does not work well with Teflon, even if you rough up the surface to be glued. Thus, the wood screws and wrap-around Teflon. The other bearing surface is Ebony Star. It's every bit as good as it's hailed on various ATM websites.
Here you can see the five 5 lb. lead bricks I had to use to balance out the scope...and the 12V muffin fan that blows on the bottom of the mirror to vent air from or into the mirror box. My preliminary results with fans and boundaries of warm air suggests this fan has little effect. The other fan, however, that blows air ACROSS the surface of the primary has RADICAL effects on improving images at the EP (as long as the mirror is not at equilibrium). There's been discussion on the ATM list recently about fans and I concur: images are aided tremendously if the surface layer of air on the mirror is scrubbed away. Just make sure to isolate the fan to avoid vibration. Rubber bands, old mouse pads...anything to dampen the vibration should work. I'm using chunks of a mouse pad.
This is an early on shot during the building of the mirror box and flex rocker. From this picture you can see the 9 rectangular plates for the 12 point PLOP designed mirror cell. (Once again I have Tom Krajci to thank for his input! The 12 point cell and bars instead of triangles are also some of his contributions to ATMing.) I have not glued the mirror in place yet, but I haven't seen any hint of astigmatism or deformation of the image, even at very low altitudes. The lack of astig should hold out even after RTVing the mirror in place. The rectangles are mounted on a 'T' for adjustment and collimation. I have a homemade laser collimator with a soccer ball image that I cast onto the wall when collimating. Collimation is a cinch: put the collimator in the drawtube. I wrapped Duct tape around the PVC tubing/housing to make it fit snugly into the draw tube. Center the red laser dot in the center of the secondary (I actually put a tiny black dot in the center of my secondary. Hissssss. Call me a heathen, go ahead.) Adjust the truss pole lengths to center the red dot on the primary (I used an adhesive donut to identify the center of my primary; one of those reinforcement thingies for paper that's been hole-punched to be put in a binder.). Adjusting the pole lengths is the trickiest part because it's not difficult to get the optical and mechanical axes out of whack. I then push the scope to nearly horizontal and aim it at a wall or sheet or anything flat and preferably light or white. Adjust the three primary mirror collimation screws such that the reflection or shadow of the secondary is centered in the red soccer ball image on the wall. I've learned that the more time I spend tweaking the collimation, the better the views. I don't think it has anything to do with the mirror cooling down, it's just simply improving collimation!The other two altitude bearings are mounted to the outside of the mirror box and the setup follows Mel's Tri-Dob. Aligning the three components of the altitude bearing to make them concentric has been an ongoing topic of discussion on the ATM list.
Mel suggests: "The variation in altitude rims is as great as impact as any de-centering.
So, just build to normal good 1/32 inch tolerance, and you'll be fine. That error
calculates to a few arcminutes in most situations."
Jan van Gastel is building a large tri-dob and has implemented the use of a jig to make
sure his bearing surfaces are concentric.
I drilled lightening holes in the bracket that connects the two altitude bearings. In hindsight I would NOT drill holes in this bracket because it weakened the entire structure. I used aluminum angle to reinforce all the corners and vertices in the mirror box. A rigid mirror box is ESSENTIAL!!--see my comments below.
I was originally going to mount the truss clamps to the bracket between the altitude bearings, but I couldn't find a way to mount them there and still have clearance as the OTA tips down to the horizon. (Ah, the things you can't see in 2D models or paper!) Thus, mounting the clamps to the alt bearings puts quite a bit of demand on the rigid nature of the bearing. Mine flex. They need to be made thicker, but that will require a new flex rocker and larger ground ring inner diameter.I'm currently redesigning and enlarging the mirror box and flex rocker (which will be motorized using Mel Bartel's Go-To Stepper Motor Drive system) and I will follow James Lerch's advice regarding driving the altitude bearing from the central bearing (or "fin") rather than from the outer altitude trunions. You can refer to James' ATM list comments HERE, which are based on motorization of his 16" binocs. You can see his creation HERE and first light images HERE. (I always have a hard time finding these pages by Google!) There was also some discussion on the Scope-Drive list (July 2005) regarding driving a tri-dob.
Kevin started it:
I was wondering if the Trilateral Dob design by Mel Bartel's could be
adapted for computer operation.
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
Kevin.
...and I replied (edited):
I've bounced several questions off Mel and the group and from the responses, it appears that the tri-dob platform can be motorized. Based on my perspective and research the altitude will have to be driven via the central altitude fin (the center alt bearing). Issues related to pointing accuracy and imprecision resulting from non-concentric alt bearings can be remedied in the software, according to Mel. I don't know how "easy" that fix will be, but given Mel's reputation, I have no doubts that problems would be solved. [comments regarding James Lerch's recommendation for driving the altitude from the center alt fin.]
I foresee problems with weight or pressure on the worm at the alt. drive contact unless there is a "trolley" or pivot bearing installed very near the worm/bearing contact point. Mel suggested the "trolley" idea...it's in the archives under "weight on the worm". Alternatively, you could widen the center alt bearing/fin by reinforcing with an additional section of ply, modify the existing contact point to a roller bearing and add teeth to the nascent ply sector. If you make the bearing "adjustable" with respect to vertical, you wouldn't need to build "tensioning" into this worm drive; you would only need rigid worm support.
Driving the azimuth appears straightforward: Generate the teeth on the outside of the ground ring.(JB Weld, if you like.) Implement some sort of bearing or guide system on the inside of the ground ring (to maintain even contact between ground ring and flex rocker). I've done this already on mine...I mounted three bearings (another tridobism!) to the underside of the flex rocker and they ride against the inside perimeter/surface of the ground ring. I need to figure out how to make one of them adjustable. Install the stepper directly to the flex rocker and aim it tangential to the outside of the ground ring. Find a way to apply tension to the worm and you're golden.
Ultimately, I think both steppers have to be mounted to the flex rocker. I could be way off, though. Early on I kept telling myself that my flex rocker was too flexible to pull this off. But after thinking about it, the flex rocker doesn't have any real restrictions with respect to how thick or "solid" it needs to be at the two positions where stepper motors will be mounted. You could reinforce and build off of the flex rocker as much as you need 'at these two locations' and still maintain the flexure required for the OTA to sit down on the rocker and adjust to a stable three-point stance. And another thought I had was that I could actually just build a whole 'nuther flex rocker and permanently attach the stepper motors to it. Then, when my battery or pc dies, all I need to do is swap out the stepper flex rocker with my original teflon bearing flex rocker, flip or drop out the roller bearings and I'm back to manual steering. That would be pretty nifty and spiffy. As with all ATM projects, she's a work in progress. But I gotta tell ya, there are few things more enjoyable than waltzing a 16" scope out the back door, setting up and collimating in 15 minutes and be staring at the planets and stars just like that! Sweet!
And I owe it all to you fine folks on the ATM list!
Whooohhoooo!
Dumpster Dave
Mel Bartels: "The only comment I'd add ... is that the altitude can be driven
from a single long thin drive rod that stretches across and underneath
the forward altitude rim fins."
So there you have it! Now, back to construction...
And speaking of the ground ring,
here it is in progress.
...and here's the flex rocker. Note that the rocker does not sit symmetrically
on the ground ring. In the picture on the right you can see the Teflon azimuth
bearing and one of the three bearings that guides the flex rocker as it spins on
the ground ring. The bearing rides directly against the inner wood surface of
the ground ring. I believe that this surface needs to be lined, probably with sheet
metal or aluminum. And I need to find a way to make this bearing adjustable, so
that it rides constantly against the ground ring surface (or holds constant
tension against the ground ring inner rim). Mel's Tri-Dob uses 4 bearings that
ride on the outside of the ground ring. Mine uses three ball bearings that ride
against the inside of the ground ring.
Lessons learned & Ideas
There were several lessons regarding the tri-dob (TriDob) design that I didn't fathom until I tried to build it:
1) the inherent triangles created by the trusses to stabilize the OTA don't meet
together on the same face of the mirror box which DEMANDS more rigidity in the mirror box. I
still have issues with this. I used 1/4" body wall aluminum angle to stiffen the
mirror box (again, thinking light was better! Thinking? NOT.), but my mirror box still flexes.
I used 1/2" Birch veneer ply. It was expensive and high quality. However, I do
NOT like the way the veneer finish chips so easily. It is frustrating to have a
nice cut and then have chips fall off when you bump the edge. It is a very
brittle veneer finish, so caveat emptor, my friends! The flexure results in temporary miscollimation when pushing the scope around,
especially near azimuth. When I release the "steering wheel" (endring) the scope
returns to it's collimated state. However, this miscollimation is particularly
frustrating when trying to track something manually at very high power.
2) the split altitude bearings MUST be centered to approximately 1/32" (as Mel
has recently stated on the ATM list July 2005). This was tricky to implement and
required LOTS of measuring and re-measuring. I couldn't think of a way to build
a jig to ensure the bearing surfaces revolved around the same center.
3) When I rebuild the mirror box (and I WILL) I'll make it larger, stiffer and
deeper. I was trying to conserve weight, but wound up adding 25 pounds of lead
to the butt AND using virtual counterweights (Springs, a la Tom Krajci). I will
also shift the mirror farther from the center of the alt bearings (i.e. the
altitude pivot point) to improve the balance. I'd LOVE to get rid of some lead.
4) Mounting the secondary holder using the wire spider was a nightmare, until
Mel convinced me to build a jig to clamp to the endring and physically suspend
the secondary in the correct orientation until I could tighten the wires in the
spider. The jig is simply a circle of plywood the same diameter as the endring
with three posts spaced at 120 degrees around the outer perimeter. I put three
screws through my endring into the posts and then mounted the secondary & mirror
to the jig through a hole in the center of the jig (the by-product of cutting
the circle with a router and circle-cutting jig). You then mount this massive
endring on the scope and collimate with the jig in place. Once you've properly
positioned the secondary (with respect to distance from the primary and centered
in the endring) you just wire the secondary in place. Save yourself some
headache and build the jig--you'll be glad you did! I started using Spiderwire
(the really tough, non-monofilament, woven fishing line), but it failed due to
abrasion where the line met the aluminum blocks of the central hub. I have since
switched to 25 gauge wire, but beware you only get one shot with this stuff
before it breaks from bending. I suppose I should try some guitar string, as has
been suggested on the ATM list.
This is my first attempt at describing my TriDob. If you would like to see more
pictures or better descriptions of any particular part of the scope, I would
love to hear from you! Drop a note on the ATM list or send me an email.
A couple of astrophotos of the moon through the 16" Tri-Dob. I was using a Russell Optics 19 mm Super Wide Angle (SWA) without my 2x Barlow. The camera is a Pentax Optio 5.0. The image has been cropped but not modified in any other way. We tried shooting a globular cluster in Scorpius, but the hand was too unsteady and I didn't know my way around the camera as well then. The image through the scope was tack sharp, so the images here suffer from operator error. Still, I was pleasantly surprised. I'm looking forward to playing with this some more. I even have a retired webcam that I'd like to modify. (So many projects, so little time!!)
Feel free to e-mail me at: unspamsmithersscope@yahoo.com (remove the 'unspam')